This began on a group discussion on Facebook. A certain Mormon made a comment on how the Temple ordinances are essential for salvation, to which I replied:
You say the temple ordinances are essential for salvation. See this is the danger of adding to salvation. Christ said whoever believs in Him, repents of sins, and is baptized, will enter Heaven. this is salvation: simple profession of faith in Christ and following Him every day. When you take a free gift such as salvation, and attempt to earn it by good works, not only do you make a mockery of that free gift, but you also endanger yourself by thinking you may become worthy enough to get exulted. Ecclesiates says all our righteousness are like filthy rags. Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For by grace ye have been saved through faith, not of yourseleves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should bost." Have been saved, past tense. Its a sealed deal. Good works come after our salvation, and helps us endure with salvation till the end of our lives. As the holy Council of Trent describes it "Grace precedes works".
Well that ignited another Mormon's passion against my view, so he decided to post a lengthy answer in the discussion board. I hope this will be educational to any reading it seeing the mind of the cults, Mormonism in this case, in action explaining their concept of salvation to unaware inquiring Christians. Their statments make them appear to believe in salvation exactly the same way we do, but when one digs deeper he finds that the Mormon's view on salvation and the Catholic's view on salvation are two entirly different things indeed. Now I didn't bring up a lot of quotes as I normally do from Mormon sources in regards to "works then grace", as opposed to the Catholic's "faith then sacraments then works". So hopefully you'll benefit from this discussion. The Mormon's name is Walker Wright:
WALKER WRIGHT
I had this online conversation with a Catholic who did not know I was Mormon on the subject of grace:
CATHOLIC: The issue in Catholicism is that God's grace saves us but that grace is received through faith, good works, and sacraments. Thus the amount of grace one receives, i.e. closeness with God, could vary by the individual and the life they choose to lead.
ME: "And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace." Since "grace" in Greek means "favor, loving-kindness", it seems that we receive more grace for how we respond to it. From my readings, I understand that the more we respond to grace and are empowered by it, the more we are sanctified. One will feel of God's grace and, if responsive, will grow in it and be lead to baptism and so forth. Grace empowers, but isn't irresistable. Would that be an accurate way of putting it?
CATHOLIC: You, sir, have an excellent understanding of grace. God does not force us to love Him, for if He did we could not. Therefore the key aspect to grace is its non-oppresive nature, how it is always offered but only received by choice. Thus the more you respond to grace, the more saturated you become by it. Reading your comment made me smile, thank you.
ME: I do have a question for Catholics though: can you begin to feel of God's grace before sacraments? Or does it all come ONLY through sacraments?
CATHOLIC: Excellent question! Yes, you can begin to feel God's grace prior to the Sacraments. The ordinary ways that we think of receiving grace is through faith, good works, and Sacraments. However, God's grace can work in ways that we cannot even begin to imagine. People receive actual graces throughout their day and lifetime, even if they do not have sanctifying grace. And the Church recognizes the myster of grace to operate in "non-ordinary" fashions as well as "ordinary."
Apparently I had an "excellent understanding of grace" in his eye. And from what I've read from other Catholics, you can fall from grace. Therefore, grace is received and maintained through faith, good works, and sacraments/ordinances. Our temple ordinances are "sacraments" to us. They are grace-infusing ordinances. I believe these to be part of the esoteric teachings of early Christianity. Just because they do not fall under your idea of "sacraments" does not make them so.
You place a lot of emphasis on "for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do", as do Protestants. Your interpretation of this off. Nephi just prior to this phrase says, "be reconciled to God". What does he mean by this? His brother Jacob in an earlier chapter said, "Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the WILL of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved." We are told to reconcile ourselves to the will of God. If you recall, "Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." Your own Robert Sungenis spoke of Noah's righteousness being the way that he received this. Noah had reconciled himself to the will of God and found grace in His sight. This is what Jacob speaks of. At the very end of the BoM, Moroni says, "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot." You must remember that the BoM was written for "the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations." It is for the purpose of bringing people UNTO Christ. Hence, Moroni's message is how to come unto Christ; how to become a Christian. What is "all that we can do" as Nephi puts it? I would venture to say that is to reconcile yourself to the will of God or "deny yourself of all ungodliness". This language is similar to that of Isaiah and Ezekiel ("cease to do evil" or "turn yourselves from all your transgressions"). This is repentance. What is all that we can do? Jesus said to the rich man, "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." The man did this, but we lacked the faith to follow Christ. We are to get ourselves in line with God's will. This comes through the inspiration of the Holy Ghost and the gift of grace. However, we are saved by grace after doing these things, for we go from "grace to grace" as explained above. Clement of Alexandria said, "Being baptized, we are illuminated. Illuminated, we become sons...This work is variously called grace, illumination, perfection, and washing." Baptism is equated with grace or at least with receiving grace. This agrees with the BoM: "they were baptized in the waters of Mormon, and were filled with the grace of God."
Touching on "grace for grace": The BoM says, "Therefore, my son, see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; and if ye do all these things then shall ye receive your reward; yea, ye shall have mercy restored unto you again; ye shall have justice restored unto you again; ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you again; and ye shall have good rewarded unto you again. For that which ye do send out shall return unto you again, and be restored; therefore, the word restoration more fully condemneth the sinner, and justifieth him not at all." The D&C states, "For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace."
"For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified,-as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches,-and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God." - The Council of Trent
This fits perfectly with "grace for grace" (notice this is for the "justified").
"If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Corinthians 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Corinthians 15:10)." - The Council of Orange
We believe that good works are always influenced by the Holy Ghost, for "that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God." (Moroni 7) However, you must realize that I am in no way bound to councils held in the 5th century and beyond.
Our sacraments go a bit further than yours and the rewards are much greater. To take on a Protestant approach while you yourself are a Catholic is beyond me. You use the same futile arguments that we have a works-based salvation as Protestants use against you. Its absurd. The merit from our faith and works are gift from God and is not given not because we deserve it. The only reason that faith and works have any power is because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, hence "salvation is free" (2 Nephi).
Please refrain from misrepresenting our doctrine in this case. You will find it really is an expanded version of yours.
And for the record, I am aware that some Church leaders have used the word "earn" in relation to salvation. However, they too would've understood that though we are "rewarded according to our works", that our works only have such power due to the Atonement. All Church leaders emphasize this.
"not given not because we deserve it"
it should say "and not given because we deserve it"
CARMENN MASSA
Unfortunatly many Catholics who try to dialogue with the cults concerning salvation are unaware of the meaning of salvation in your theology and may also be unaware of the Catholic teaching regarding salvation. What the Catholic said to you may in his mind be accurate, but perhaps the way he worded it makes it sound like something else entirely. I noticed he didnt give you any references. First off, he said:
"The issue in Catholicism is that God's grace saves us but that grace is received through faith, good works, and sacraments. Thus the amount of grace one receives, i.e. closeness with God, could vary by the individual and the life they choose to lead."
Actually, grace is recieved through faith alone for Initial Justification, through the sacraments after the Initial Justification, and good works merely are results of our faith, and it is by God's grace that we do good works. You don't know whether you're saved or not in the now. A Catholic may be assured of his salvation in the now, but cannot be sure of it ten years from now, because he just might fall away. Salvation to us is not exultation to deity, as Satan once told Eve, and which you also believe. The jesus you put your salvation in is significantly different from the Jesus of orthodox Christianity. In Mormon theology, He is not God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made, one in being with the Father, God the Son, second Person of the Holy Trinity, One God in Three Persons forever and ever. In your theology he is merely the firstborn spirit child, brother of Lucifer, born from a god who was once a man on some other worl who achieved salvation (godhood). To the Catholic, salvation is a done deal, a continueing process, and a future event. I am saved, I am continuing to be saved, I will be saved. In your theology you wont know until the end of your life if you have that salvation or not. Right now you just hope to be a god. Whereas we as Catholics have the assurance as St. John writes in his letter. As for clarification and references concerning the Catholic doctrine of salvation, I refer you to the Catechism:
161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"
162 Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: "Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith."44 To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith (Mk 9:24; Lk 17:5; 22:32) it must be "working through charity," abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church (Gal 5:6; Rom 15:13; cf. Jas 2:14-26)
169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation." Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.
183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mk 16:16).
To sum up, if any doubt be left in your mind, I quote the infallible Council of Trent on this subject:
On Justification, Ch. VIII
When the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, "without which it is impossible to please God" and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because NONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT PRECEDE JUSTIFICATION, whether faith or works, MERIT THE GRACE of justification. For, "if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise," as the Apostle says, "GRACE IS NO MORE GRACE."
The Scripture itself clearly says, Walker:
Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.
After Initial Justification, the person must be baptized as Christ commanded. If for some reason on his way to baptism he dies, he will still enter Heaven, the Church calls this "baptism of desire".
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament. (Catechism)
Walker, as the first Christians, namely, the Catholics (and East Orthodox), we have every right to preach salvation as our forefathers taught it and died for it. Mormons have every right to believe what they want, I'm a firm advocate of that and I'll fight for Mormons' rights if ever they're taken away in this country. However, they absolutly do not have a right in any way to take our words, phrases, Scripture, give them grammatical makeovers by applying different meanings to the words, and call themselves Christians. As a startling contrast, let me show you how the Mormon doctrine of salvation differs quite extraordinarily from biblical and orthodox Christianity:
"All of us have sinned and need to repent to fully pay our part of the debt. When we sincerely repent, the Savior’s magnificent Atonement pays the rest of that debt. (2 Nephi 25:23)" [James E. Faust, "The Atonement: Our Greatest Hope," Ensign, Nov. 2001, p. 18.]
"How are you going to get your resurrection? You will get it by the President of the resurrection pertaining to this generation, and that is Joseph Smith Jun. Hear it all ye ends of the earth; if ever you enter into the kingdom of God it is because Joseph Smith let you go there. This will apply to Jews and Gentiles, to the bond, and the free; to friends and foes; no man or woman in this generation will get a resurrection and be crowned, without Joseph Smith saying so. The man who was martyred in Carthage Jail, State of Illinois, holds the keys of life and death to this generation. He is the President of the resurrection in this dispensation, ..." (An unpublished Discourse given October 8, 1854. Also found on page 99 of Eugene E. Campbell's book entitled, "The Essential Brigham Young").
"He that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fulness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ" (JOD 9:312 [Young]).
I noticed you forgot to add these things in your rebut. But allow me to show some things more disturbing:
“There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receiveforgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had theireyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to HAVE THEIR BLOOD SPILT upon the ground, that the smoke thereofmight ascend to heaven as an OFFERING FOR THEIR SINS; and the smoking incense would ATONE for their sins, whereas, if such is not thecase, they will stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world. (Sermon by Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses,Vol. 4, pages 53-54; also published in the Deseret News, 1856, page 235)
Your obvious reply would be "Well thats just Brigham Young, we dont actually teach that anymore". That amazes me, because Brigham Young as you very well know I'm sure stated that all his sermons were good as Scripture. Therefore what he just said concerning blood atonment is Scripture itself.
Fascinating, not only do you delibertly twist the meaning of "salvation" by failing to tell other Christians you mean "exultation to godhood", but you also fail to mention that you'll never know if you are saved until you die, and furthermore you fail to mention that the General Authorities once openly taught Christ's blood was insufficient. If you are worried about context please dont be, I would be happy to look at the 1800s edition of your own sources with you and we can read them entirely in context, but it would only prove my side correct.
"For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified,-as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches,-and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God." - The Council of Trent
I love how you try and take our holy councils and hope that if you quote only part of it it'll somehow match up to what you're trying to say. Lets look at Trent once more in context shall we?
On Justification, Ch. VIII
When the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, "without which it is impossible to please God" and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because NONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT PRECEDE JUSTIFICATION, whether faith or works, MERIT THE GRACE of justification. For, "if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise," as the Apostle says, "GRACE IS NO MORE GRACE."
"For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified,-as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches,-and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God." - The Council of Trent
Not only is your baptism invalid according to Christianity, since you worship three seperate gods and not the Triune God, you are baptized into paganism and heretical teachings, commonly know as the doctrine of the demons. As stated before, you have absolutly no right to take our words, phrases, Scripture, and give them twisted meanings and reinterpret everything the apostles and their disciples died to uphold. I assure you I am not attack it from a Protestant viewpoint, but they are entirly correct when they emphasize salvation through grace alone and not by your personal works. Trent agrees. Good works are done by us with the help of the Holy Spirit, but they do not save us. They justify our faith, and our faith justifies us before God.
Since you and the missionaries have a habit of not revealing things in their proper context I figured I might as well do it for you. Once thats done, we see two entirly different teachings. One the doctrine of Jesus Christ, the other the doctrine of the demons. If you're still unsatisfied with your own sources which I quoted I have plenty more which Im sure you would not be happy with. Unfortuantly the Catholic you spoke with didnt know enough about your church and its take on salvation. Your sacraments promise you godhood, the same promise Satan made to Eve.
The Jesus of the Catholic Church promises us salvation as in being given the chance to come to Him and one day reign with Him forever, not as gods, since God knows no other gods (Isaiah), but as joint heirs. If youre concerned about the accuracy of the biblical translation I have the original manupscrits and we can certaintly take a look at those if such is called into question.
“It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet MEN CAN COMMIT SINS WHICH IT CAN NEVER REMIT. As it was in ancient days, so it is in ourday; and though the principles are taught publicly from this stand, still the people do not understand them; yet the law is precisely the same. There are sins that can be ATONED for by an offering upon an altar, as in ancient days; and there are sins that the blood of a lamb, of a calf, or of turtle doves, cannot remit, but THEY MUST BE ATONED FOR BY THE BLOOD OF THE MAN. (Sermon by Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses,Vol. 4, pages 53-54; also published in the Deseret News, 1856, page 235)
Just for added measure :)
"I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 13:95).
Indeed, you do have an excellent understanding of grace...just not the grace of Jesus Christ.
So you see, there are major differences between our Catholic salvation and the "full salvation" of Mormonism. You and I both agree at least that salvation is synonomous with "eternal life." Here's eternal life from your Prophet's own mouth:
"Here, then, is eternal life — to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one." (King Follet Discourse)
"Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation ... They [those who obtain eternal life] will become gods." (Gospel Principles)
Once again, you are in error saying your view of salvation and sacraments are merely an expansion of ours. They are entirly seperate things. If any Catholic believed this doctrine of Mormon salvation he would be anathema.
Since not all Mormons will enter the Temple, not all Mormons recieve "full salvation" - which is why you work and hope to earn your way in. What a sad story. All I have are simply the sacraments my God in human flesh, Jesus Christ, gave to me when He said "This is My body, this is My blood; Recieve the Holy Spirit, whatever sins you forgive and forgiven them, whatever sins you retain are retained; a man must be born of water and Spirit." The sacraments of marriage and the priesthood give grace indeed, the same grace I recieve from eucharist, confession, and one-time baptism. I am indeed assured of my salvation in the now, but not ten years from now. Yours is a different story. You need the Temple to become a god, while I already have grace from Christ as His brother, God's child, bearing my cross until the end of the road. If we show the same love, the same character Christ showed, as St. John tells us, we can know we are saved. Paul warns us to run the race so that we be not disqualified, but this is only AFTER our salvation has been given to us (past tense).
The change in your doctrine is subtle, deceptive to the inquiring Christian, and deceptive to you, a victim of the doctrine of the demons. Believe what you want but when you dare label yourself a Christian, be prepared for heavey offense from the Body of Christ warring against the powers behind the Mormon kingdom. I will pray for you. I dont do or say any of this because I hate Mormons, I do not at all hate Mormons. According to Christianity you are damned to hell because you worship a false jesus christ, a false god, a false holy spirit, three seperte gods simply united in purpose. You adhere to Lucifer's doctrine of man becoming god. According to Catholiscm you are heading for hell, and my friend the Lord is not willing that any should perish. According to your doctrine Im not going to hell, i'll get a second chance in the afterlife. You, Walker, will not, neither will any Mormon. This is why Catholics and Protestants alike have been trying to reach you. Protestants are in error yes, but they have the same Triune God we do, the same Jesus Christ, the same grace imparted from Him unto them. You do not because you reject the Jesus of traditional orthodoxy, as Hinckley boldly stated, and you bring in another gospel along side the Bible (which Joseph Smith added and took away in his unique translation).
So you see my friend, it is out of love that we disagree with you and disagree boldly. Like I said I'm praying for you, the Jesus of Christianity loves you.
WALKER WRIGHT
It sounds like we couldn't begin to really have a good debate because as you have pointed out, salvation to us is not the same thing to you. I totally agree. It is hard for us to have a good debate because of such vast differences. You hit a lot of different subjects in your "rebuttal", including deification, blood atonement, and so forth. Hard to stay on topic when so many things are brought up, but I see the point you were trying to make.
As for forgetting to post things in my rebuttal, I did no such thing. What you want me to do is post every single prophet or apostle that has ever talked on the subject. Your Brigham Young quotes have nothing to do with anything frankly. We are not discussing "blood atonement" or "resurrection". We are discussing grace.
I have had this discussion many times. Perhaps you overlooked my Moroni 7 quote saying that all goods things are inspired by God. However, we must respond to this inspiration. Would this not fit with your infused grace/cooperation with grace doctrine? I always say that faith is the root. I constantly say that in my arguments. Why do you think I mentioned the rich man? He supposedly was keeping the commandments (which Christ said was essential for life), but he lacked faith. He would not come unto Christ and be perfect. He lacked faith. Without this faith, he could not be saved. Our works do not save us. It is only our faith in Christ and His atonement. We have faith, but one that is accompanied with works (for "faith without works is dead"). We believe that these ordinances, including baptism, the sacrament, and temple, to be sacred covenants showing our acceptance of Christ's grace and a channel for the Spirit. We believe we must repent and do what we can, however it is Christ's grace that will take us all the way for "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". Repentance involves setting yourself in line with God's will. It is inspired by God. It is the Spirit touching you and moving you to do so. It leads you to make covenants or commitments to Christ that you might fully accept the His atonement and be sanctified by it.
No one fully understands the workings of God and His grace. I don't pretend to. But to say that we somehow are works-based and you are not is beyond me. Without Christ, all would be lost. Without Christ, no faith or works would matter. But you are right: we are completely different and I feel no need to align our doctrines with yours. I still feel that you have misrepresented us. Remember, we are "SAVED by grace, after all we can do". After repenting, His grace is "SUFFICIENT for us". Granted, His grace would've been working in our life to even lead us to Him, but in grand scheme of things it is only after we have faith, repent, and come unto Him through covenants that the Atonement can work in its fullest sense on our behalf.
If you would like to reply, feel free. i only joined to post these comments. But I debate already a lot in the Mormons are Christians. I may or may not respond if you reply.
CARMENN MASSA
'Your Brigham Young quotes have nothing to do with anything frankly. We are not discussing "blood atonement" or "resurrection". We are discussing grace.'
Thats exactly what Brigham was saying too, Walker. Why dont you say the same thing he did?
Your own sources and quotes already blatantly say enough about how yours is a works-faith doctrine. Ours, as Catholics, is faith-works. "...after all we can do" as Brigham and your other prophets and apostles understood and taught it, is that grace comes only after you've basically merited it. So to say you believe exactly as Catholics do is incorrect. Your own missionaries admitted that themselves when I discussed this with them, mind you they and I were into the debate deeper and I had a backpack full of their own papers and writings which didn't reallyt give them any choice but to admit what I was saying about the Mormon concept of salvation is accurate.
'Perhaps you overlooked my Moroni 7 quote saying that all goods things are inspired by God.'
I read that passage in the 1830s edition Book of Mormon and am well aware of it.
'However, we must respond to this inspiration. Would this not fit with your infused grace/cooperation with grace doctrine?'
Absolutly not. As stated in my above posts, grace comes before works, only after Initial Justification can good works spring forth and be inspired of God to help us on the road of salvation. The Scripture that says "work out your salvation" simply means doing good works within your salvation. In the Greek text its blatantly implied that the salvation has already been given to the person working. The Catholic doctrine of cooperation with grace simply means that the person comes to Christ of his own free will. This is the cooperation. He does not do x-number of works, or recieve x-number of sacraments, all this comes after Initial Justification. Your doctrine says opposite.
Thats ok if you dont reply to my posts, I meet with Mormon missionaries all the time and my debates are in person. I'll just continue writing my viewpoint and backing it up with authoritative sources, and if somehow it gets deleted from this group it'll be made available in my own group 'An Expose of the LDS Church.'
Yes we can discuss the Trinity, that's fine. And true what you say, the differences is our deities. Mine is the Triune God, yours are the Three Gods united in Purpose and Mission. So most defintly clarification on who has the right God is a must before entering into doctrines of salvation.
We may be uncovering some little interesting notes on Joseph Smith in the process, from History of the Church, among other authoritatve sources, just to let you know. After all, like you say, it all falls down on Smith and Book of Mormon, the cornerstone of your faith.
Just sidenote for anyone reading this: Notice the word "after" in the passage. "...for by grace are we saved, AFTER all we can do." Time element. Have to do all that we can first, then we are saved by grace. Thats simply what the text says. Anything contrary to what the text says is only their 'interpretation' of the so-called sacred text of the Book of Mormon. Wow...don't know about you but I'll stick with the grace of Christ BEFORE all I could ever do (which, btw, isn't much at all because no matter what I do I cant make myself worthy for Him)
Alma 11:37 - And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their asins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that bno unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.
If a man on his deathbed cannot be saved in his sins, what condition must he be in to be saved? The opposite of "in", which is "out", outside of your sins. Now how does one do that? How does one completely remove himself from all his sins in order to be saved? Christ said it's impossible, as did the Apostles, as does the Catholic Church. Once again, excluding the fact your salvation means godhood, we can see just how different you doctrine of justification is dark and impossible, yet for us as Catholics we have the Hope of salvation without fear of having to rid ourselves of all sin. If we die saved, yet with a sin in our hearts, Christ promises us that we will be made clean, either in this life or the next.
So far I have not recieved a response. When he posts one I will be sure to repost here.
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