Wednesday, April 22, 2009

Dialogue with a Mormon concerning the Virgin Birth of Christ

A few days before Lent I had an interesting discussion with a certain Mormon gentleman who commented on my Facebook status 'Carmenn has now joined the group Ask A Mormon What They Really Believe'. In the spirit of the group I began asking Mormons questions and eventually got banned (can't imagine why though....and none of my questions got answered). Anyways, from this certain Mormon's commenting on my status, the discussion arose. Actually, it began with a good friend of mine Wyatt asking about Mormonism and what it teaches. When he and another good friend, Jaclyn, began commenting, the Mormon gentleman added in his 2 cents and what resulted is the following dialogue.

Am I the most perfect debater against Mormonism? Of course not! I have never claimed to be. However I'd like to post these dialogues and hope they will be educational if only in seeing how the cultist's mind functions. The smartest people on the planet can be the most irrational when it comes to the deceptive religion their being fed. I ask that you continue keeping this gentleman in your prayers.


Wyatt John-Ewen MacRae at 5:37am February 16

Well what is it what do they believe?

Carmenn Massa at 10:55am February 16

Everything contrary to orthodox Christianity. They use the same words, phrases, and language that we do, but they have changed the terminology to mean entirely different things. Salvation to them is exaltation to godhood, to be worshiped as a supreme deity over their own worlds. Jesus Christ as the Son of God is meant that He is merely our first born spirit brother in heaven, who God happened to choose to become the Savior and a god. The Virgin Birth means God had physical sex with Mary to produce Jesus. Theres so much more, but i think you get the point :)

Wyatt John-Ewen MacRae at 10:58am February 16
That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. That is so not true; wow they need a serious wake up call.

Carmenn Massa at 11:09am February 16
This is what happens when people fellow men instead of Christ. It's leading them straight into hell. I'll give them this though, the doctrine of exaltation to godhood is quite biblical. unfortunately it originated with Satan.......

Wyatt John-Ewen MacRae at 11:12am February 16
Yeah, that is quite unfortunate. Yhe last thing we want to do is make the devil power hungry.

Jaclyn Langman at 10:17am February 17
mm.....that is interesting carm. I should really look into what other people'd help so much when defending and presenting the Christian faith. I've met a few Mormons at camp and counselled one.

Todd Swift
Wyatt, I would suggest if you want to know what a Mormon believes ask one of them. Carmenn would have you believe all sorts of half truths and distortions. I do not mind if he refuses to believe what we teach, but the man is seriously a straw-man fallacy when it comes to debating other people's faith. We may disagree on many points of doctrine, but he refuses to agree with the simple fact that we are on the same side with Christ fighting against Satan. I cannot understand how a person claims to be Christian yet refuses to accept allies. Christ taught us to love our enemies, Carmenn teaches you to make enemies out of His friends.

Todd Swift at 8:45am February 20
No we do not claim that God had physical sex with Mary. Carmenn has the mind of a three year old on this issue.

Carmenn Massa at 5:01pm February 20really pal then I'm sure Bruce mconkie, Brigham young, and the rest of your prophets had the minds of three year olds on this issue. its all from your own sources.

jayce, you'll find most Mormon don't know what their church teaches and many, if you tell them you have their own documents, wont bother looking into it. its sad actually. sadder still, is when Mormons claim to be Christian, which they most certaintly are not. so Todd, about loving your enemies, this is exactly why i go against Mormonism, because i love Mormons and your doctrines are sending to you to someplace other than heaven. it was your church who damned all other churches as the Devil's Church, so i find it ironic that now you demand all churches view yours as Christians. like i said, it is sad, but because we love you for Christ we'll continue doing what we do.

Carmenn Massa at 2:05am February 21just for clarification on the virgin birth thing:

"Christ was begotten by an immortal Father the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers." - Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine (1979), p. 547

"Our Lord is the only mortal person ever born to a virgin, because he is the only person who ever had an immortal Father." (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., p. 822)

When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost... Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven... Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, pp. 50, 51)

Todd Swift at 2:05am February 21Carmenn demonstrates here exactly why you shouldn't take anything he says about us seriously. He is a bigot. He does not pray for those who need Jesus, but rather rails against those who believe they have found Jesus. His love for himself is greater than his love for God.

Carmenn Massa at 2:07am February 21"I believe the Father came down from heaven, as the Apostles said he did, and begat the Saviour of the world; for he is the only-begotten of the Father, which could not be if the Father did not actually beget him in person." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 238)

"I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, also my Saviour Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it." (Journal of Discourses, 8:211)

Todd Swift at 2:08am February 21None of those quotes demonstrate that God had physical sex with Mary, but rather state that she was a virgin. Jesus was COMPOSED of a mortal mother and immortal Father, in the same way you are composed of both mortal parents. How you conclude that this means God had sex with Mary is evidence that your maturity level does not extend beyond the second grade.

Todd Swift at 2:10am February 21We believe His birth was of a virgin, though He was begotten of God. It was one of the many miracles by which God's Son glorified Him.

Carmenn Massa at 2:12am February 21Hmm i dont pray for those who need Jesus, todd? So now you know my heart and all that I do? If I didnt know any better Id say you were a bit "put out", pierced by a two edged sword of truth, perhaps? Let's see now, so far you have done absolutely nothing but use ad hominem in these comments, essentially calling me stupid, a bigot, a liar, and un-Christian. Now all I have done is present you with facts, both from the Scriptures and from your own sources to prove what i say is correct concerning the false doctrines of the LDS. For your information, Todd, a few of my friends as well as myself have been keeping you and other mormons in prayer ever since we met. My question is why are you mad at me? You dont call a man a bigot and a liar unless you're mad at him, and todd you can be angry and filled with hate as much as you want but that will not stop me from loving you for Jesus

Todd Swift at 2:13am February 21beget
verb 1. (Old-fashioned) cause, bring, produce, create, effect, lead to, occasion, result in, generate, provoke, induce, bring about, give rise to, precipitate, incite, engender
verb 2. father, breed, generate, sire, get, propagate, procreate

Modern science makes it possible for men to father children without ever having sex with the mother. If modern science can do it , why can't God?

Todd Swift at 2:13am February 21The truth is not in you. Otherwise you would not make blatant lies as I have revealed for your friends

Todd Swift at 2:15am February 21I do not have to be mad at you to know you lie. I am sad that in spite of my best efforts to speak reasonably with you, you refuse to properly represent my faith.

Carmenn Massa at 2:16am February 21"I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, also my Saviour Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it." (Journal of Discourses, 8:211)

that doesnt demonstrate natural birth, todd? why not let the others decide who will most likely be getting emails in their inboxes that people have left comments after theirs. what about this one todd?

"God, the Father of our spirits, became the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. Hence, the Father saith concerning him, 'Thou are my Son, this day have I begotten thee.' - Orson Pratt, (The Seer, pp. 158-9)

no matter how you look at it, this doctrine was taught explicitly in the LDS, and has never been denounced to this day

Todd Swift at 2:16am February 21Carmenn, we all need Jesus. Have you kept yourself in your prayers, or have you risen above the need?

Todd Swift at 2:19am February 21
Of course, I do not deny what our church teaches about Christ being the Only Begotten Son. If what we say is so repulsive, why do you deny it is in the Bible, that Christ is the Only Begotten of the Father? Once you have a definition for what that means, you will have a definition what our doctrine you've presented means.

Carmenn Massa at 2:21am February 21"Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh, and which body died on the cross and was afterward taken up by the process of resurrection, and is now the immortalized tabernacle of the eternal spirit of our Lord and Savior." - "The Father and The Son; A Doctrinal Exposition by The First Presidency and The Twelve"

the "blatant lies" i make are quoted verbatim from your own sources todd, so that should tell you something. im actually quite glad you are commenting the way you are in this status, because all ive done is quote your own authoritivate sources, which agree with what i say, and you have provided absolutly nothing in defense of your denial, except the definition of "begotten" which unfortuantly does not help your position.

Todd Swift at 2:21am February 21I never called you stupid. If you were stupid I would not be trying to set you straight. You are stubborn and prideful. That is a sin, stupid is not. I have declared your sins, not your shortcomings.

Todd Swift at 2:23am February 21You said, "God had physical sex with Mary". That is NOT quoted verbatim. Even in decrying your own lies, you lie.

Todd Swift at 2:24am February 21In all of this you are only denying what the Scriptures teach, that Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God.

Carmenn Massa at 2:27am February 21todd, as ive explained once, ive explained a billion times, "only begotten" in the context of Scripture, concerning Christ, does not mean physical in any way. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Christ was ALWAYS there with the Father, never being created, never was there a time when He did not exist. In fact modern translations translate it more accuratly as "one and only Son", showing that Christ is the only true Son of God, being God Himself in the second Person. any Christian gets this without any problem

Carmenn Massa at 2:31am February 21You said, "God had physical sex with Mary". That is NOT quoted verbatim. Even in decrying your own lies, you lie.

oh please todd, you know exactly what i meant when i said i quoted verbatim your own sources. your apostles and prophets have said God had sex with mary to produce Jesus Christ. if you dont think my paraphrasing all those quotes into one sentence is inaccurate, then i cant help you. as for my being prideful, i can assure you there is no pride in my showing you the truth. if you choose to ignore it, thats your issue. you said i had the mind of a three year old, what exactly did u mean to iimply todd? so far you have not dealt at all with the issues, but continue in ad hominem. if you continue doing this then you'll be left to comment all you want, you wont be getting any responses from me until you actually decide to deal with the evidense presented

Todd Swift at 2:32am February 21Do you deny that Christ is the only begotten Son of God?

John 1: 14, 18
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

• • •
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 3: 16, 18
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting ilife.

• • •
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Carmenn Massa at 2:36am February 21oh my goodness, look, plain a simple todd. "only begotten" - in greek, MǑNǑGĚNĒS, which simply means "unique, one of a kind, the only", look it up for yourself. So you see Todd, the Scriptures do indeed go against the LDS in this. we just killed two birds with one stone: Christ is the ONLY Son of the Father (guess Christ doesnt havent spirit brothers and sisters, eh?) and the word does not at all imply any physical reproduction. In english the meaning can be muddled

Todd Swift at 2:36am February 21The Book of Mormon teaches that Mary was a virgin both before and after Christ's birth:

1 Nephi 11
13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.
14 And it came to pass that I saw the heavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he said unto me: Nephi, what beholdest thou?
15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.
18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.
20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms.

Notice how in verse 20 she is still a virgin. It cannot be more clear that what we teach is that Christ was begotten of a mortal woman and Immortal Father, though conceived by miraculous means that escape the human mind.

Carmenn Massa at 2:37am February 21You're the one who denies that fact that Christ was never begotten as a spirit child. He always was, having no beginning.

Carmenn Massa at 2:39am February 21you know just as well as i do the book of mormon does not contain the fulness of mormon teaching, you need your prophets as well for your doctrines, which is how you recieved many of your doctrines. face it todd, it was "divine revelation" that led them to believe God had sex with mary to produce Jesus Christ

Todd Swift at 2:39am February 21You still don't understand our teachings. We believe that ALL of us have no beginning as God's spirit children.

Todd Swift at 2:41am February 21
Face it Carmenn, you know we don't teach that, but it is convenient for your unbelief.

Todd Swift at 2:42am February 21
I didn't have a problem when your dishonesty was between you and me, but when you attempt to deceive others, I have to call you on it.

Carmenn Massa at 2:47am February 21
yeah ok, dishonesty, show everything from your own sources in context and somhow thats dishonesty. hmmm, interesting. so far todd youve just proved to anyone reading this that you dont care to face the facts from your own archives, and that goes unfortuabtly for many of your mormon friends. and you even misrepresent the theology on spirit children - God needed Heavenly Mother to produce as spirit children.

Todd Swift at 2:55am February 21
"Natural birth" means born naturally - medically this means a utero birth. Conception and birth are two entirely seperate actions. Christ was begotten of the Father. To "beget" a child means to create, father or sire a child. Christ was conceived miraculously, born naturally, and begotten of Divinity. Mary truly carried a Child in her womb, but her virginity was not voided by the Child being placed therein. Your inability to recognize this is why I discredited your maturity level.

Todd Swift at 2:55am February 21
No, Carmenn. I agree with the quotes, but very strongly with your deduction that they imply sexual intercourse.

Carmenn Massa at 3:13am February 21
but they didnt speak "medically" now did they todd? please, your scramblings for interpretations on very plain, clear, and presise texts are a little more than sad. you go ahead and believe whatever you want, but to anyone who can read, we know exactly what these gentlmen meant when they spoke of mary, God, and Jesus. and once again, never fails, you did not deal with any of the quotes.

Carmenn Massa at 3:14am February 21
"The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father; we use the term lawful Wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that He overshadowed her or begat the Savior unlawfully...He had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin Mary in the capacity of a husband, and beget a Son, although she was espoused to another; for the law which He gave to govern men and women was not intended to govern Himself, or to prescribe rules for His own conduct. It was also lawful in Him, after having thus dealt with Mary, to give her to Joseph her espoused husband. Whether God the Father gave Mary to Joseph for time only, or for time and eternity, we are not informed.

Todd Swift at 3:15am February 21
And it is you who yet misrepresents our theology on spirit children.

We teach that we were all intelligences, without beginning, whom God organized in Heaven. This act of organization is how we are His spirit children.

Yes we do have a Heavenly Mother. For we all, male and female, are created in the image of God and "neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord."

Reason tells the rational thinker that he cannot have Father without a Mother.

Carmenn Massa at 3:16am February 21
"...As God the Father begat the fleshly body of Jesus, so He, before the world began, begat his spirit. As the body required an earthly Mother, so his spirit required a heavenly Mother. As God associated in the capacity of a husband with the earthly mother, so likewise he associated in the same capacity with the heavenly one; earthly things being in the likeness of heavenly things; and that which is temporal being in the likeness of that which is eternal; or, in other words, the laws of generation upon the earth are after the order of the laws of generation in heaven" (The Seer, pp. 158-9)

yup, defintly doesnt give a hint of a clue that God and Mary had my, Carmenn where do you get such ideas? silly me, i only read the LDS sources....

see todd? now please, for your own sake, look at what youre church is saying. love you for Jesus, may God save you before you drift so far that you dont want to come back.

Todd Swift at 3:18am February 21
Yes, and nowhere in that quote does it say God had sex with Mary, but rather that He overshadowed her, as it says in the Bible. You can only draw your conclusion if you reject our very clear teaching that she was still a virgin after Christ was born.

Todd Swift at 3:20am February 21
Thank you Carmenn, I have drifted, but I now stand upon the Rock who is my Redeemer, Jesus Christ. He is my Elder Brother and my Friend; my Advocate with the Father who's Firstborn in the Spirit and Only Begotten Son in the flesh He is.

Todd Swift at 3:32am February 21
You can lie to yourself, to me and your friends as you have done so today, in the very same manner that Satan presents a lot of facts then adds his own twist of lie, but you will not be able to lie to God when He asks you before His judgement seat why you rejected His servants who sought to correct you, but you refused to be corrected because of pride.

Todd Swift at 3:35am February 21
Or you can repent and become as a little child, humble and willing to follow God even when one of His teachings can be twisted ever so slightly by deceiving spirits to appear repulsive.

Todd Swift at 3:40am February 21

The method of conception was miraculous. The reason God acted in the capacity of husband to Mary was so that Christ could not by any means be perceived as a bastard.

None of this implies that God had to have sex with her. That is a logical fallacious error, especially considering our other teachings surrounding the miracle of His perfect conception and Mary's status of virgin even upon delivering the Son of God into the world.

Carmenn Massa at 3:51am February 21
like i keep saying: read. so far all youre doing is interpreting, im just telling you what your LDS church has said, in context. and todd, got some news for ya buddy, i have repented, which is why i will never join the LDS cult. consistent denial will not help your situation Todd, but like i say, as long as you keep attacking Christendom with your false doctrines, we will continue fighting back. you should take your own advice. as for me, i will walk with Jesus Christ, who is God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made, one in being with the Father, God the Son, Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. If you ever want me to become LDS, todd, you will have to wait until i am dead, then get baptized for me :)

Todd Swift at 3:58am February 21
Again, you resort to lying. You know you have deliberately withheld context, particularly the one I just mentioned above. I never once denied any of the quotes you presented, but rather rejected the blatant lie you added to them. The problem with liars is that they often think of themselves honest. Ask yourself how Satan deceives people. He does it in the same manner you have, by presenting a whole lot of facts then adding a little tiny lie to destroy the true meaning. Dishonesty is a major character flaw. True repentance requires turning away from the sin, not indulging in it.

Carmenn Massa at 4:36am February 21
what lying, todd? you have quoted absoltuly nothing, all you have done is give your own personal interpretation of the text, hoping to God that it'll make the quotes sound more "Christian" in what they say, rather than the clear indication they give. so todd, in the greater view of things, you are the liar, the one trying to conceal the truth of your beloved prophets and apostles making heretical teachings and preaching them as God-revealed truth. you can view it any way you like, Todd, but that wont make the fact go away that your LDS church believes Mary had sex with the fleshly, tangible, God. Accusing me of liring wont do you any good at all whatsoever. Rather, you continually prove how blind you are and how un-Christian you are in your attitude. I have never seen any Mormon who adheres to the LDS church as my brother in the Lord, but only as a physical brother since we all came from Adam and Eve. Time and time again, not only your own personal words,

Carmenn Massa at 4:39am February 21
but the words of your prophets show that your church is far from Christian. All ive done is quote in context: all youve done is scramble for your own personal interpretation. So once again, thanks for proving the fallacy of mormon thought. While you condemn all Christian churches, especially the Catholic, we pray for yours, praying to God you come to Christ, because Todd you have not come to him, but have followed after the doctrine of the demons.

Todd Swift at 11:24am February 21
Here's your fundamental flaw:

You present teachings of church leaders which is well and good, but these are not our scriptures and you attempt to ignore the one simple scripture I quoted which refuted you and claim that their teachings trump our scripture, and then you twist their teachings in order to justify not following God's prophets. This would be like me trying to tell you that your Apocrypha trump your Canonized scripture. The teachings you present do not even come as close to scripture as apocrypha, yet you ignore that fact. If I were to point out instances where the apocrypha contradict the canon and say the apocrypha wins, you would consider me foolish at least, dishonest at worst.

None of the teachings you presented serve your twisted motives. You have not quoted in context once and saying so is another one of your lies that you yourself cannot see. The context you require yet fail to produce is the scripture upon which those teachings are predicated.

Carmenn Massa at 5:02pm February 21
Then i guess them apostles and prophets didnt really recieved revelation from the Lord about such teachings, eh Todd? Especially the prophets, they spoke as prophets, and their so called revelations are from God Himself. When they speak, the matter is settled. Yet the Book of Mormon doesnt contain many of the LDS doctrines thr prophets recieved. Now doesnt that disturb you? It doesnt disturb too many other Mormons because according to the LDS church the words of the prophets are from God Himself, and should not be questioned. They can deal with "contiinual revelation", it seems you dont understand that part of Mormon thought.

Carmenn Massa at 5:06pm February 21And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation (D&C 68:4).

is a very basic example of what i said concerning revelation from prophets

Todd Swift at 2:33am February 22I knew you would say this, it is part of who you are.

Did you get anything from my point though? My point is that you rejected my quote, which is very clearly from our scriptures, which simply added clarity that the quotes you presented do not imply that God had sex with Mar. Yet you tossed that out as if it were less relevant, simply because it destroyed your perverted point.

Todd Swift at 2:35am February 22So now that you know the mind and will of the Lord, will you follow it?

Carmenn Massa at 6:19am February 23
they are irrelevent todd, you know why? because God gave a new revelation to the LDs prophets, and guess what? they all stated quite clearly God had sex with Mary. now if you cant see that then i feel sorry for you. im just taking your mormon theology concerning revelation to prophets and pushing it to the max. you dont seem to like that, because you point to former revelation (Book of Mormon) while you have newer revelation (the prophets) which say God had sex with Mary. this is your theology, not mine. im just uusing the exact same technique ive seen the missionaries use when i speak with them. or i could just use another missionary technique on the subject (the missionaries who actually admitted God had sex with mary, fyi) and they have no prob;em seeing her as still a virgin, because she did not have sex with a mortal man, but an immortal glorified God, which in no way takes away from her human mortal virginity. so im not quite sure what youre sturggling with.

Carmenn Massa at 6:20am February 23
im just making a point that the LDS preach God had sex with mary, even though theyve kept it quiet for the past little while. anyways Lent is beginning, so i will not be dialoguing with you for 40 days, but instead will keep you ever more in my prayers :) Pax Jesu

1 comment:

  1. Carm can you remove my comment on this from February 17th? Please...and thank you.